Armed Firefighters – The Debate Continues… Again
Today’s Burning Question: In our city we have the luxury of a police force nearby, however, just like us they are increasingly busy. Many times we wait a significant amount of time for an officer to arrive on a scene that may or may not be violent but the potential is there, so we stage. Also while I have never been shot at I have had many patients who turned violent after our arrival. That being said, I would not be comfortable with just any or all of our FF/EMTs carrying a weapon. Perhaps the answer is a few well trained supervisors that are armed and can be there to have the backs of their crews, allowing them to focus on patient care without the worry of a weapon being taken from them while providing care.
Another thought I haven’t seen much comment on is the possibility of non-leathal weapons (tasers). What do think?
Answer: We have discussed this issue numerous times over the years – and recent events have not changed my approach one bit. I am not opposed to arming personnel but like any high risk activity we engage in – if we are going to do it, we have to do it right. The cost of doing it right may make it prohibitive for most departments but that should not be used as an excuse to do it wrong… half-assed… or recklessly.
Your suggestion about arming a few well trained supervisors may be a viable option in some jurisdictions. In a similar vein a number of state USAR teams deploy with their own force protection unit – complete with AR-15s and I think that is a terrific idea (having been the beneficiary of force protection from Georgia’s GA TF01 (GSAR) and Nashville’s TN TF02 during our deployment to Mississippi following Hurricane Katrina).
The challenge with armed supervisors – will they be there when you need them?
As for non-lethal weapons… I do not believe we should be discussing arming anyone without considering the entire force continuum that includes non-lethal weapons. Allowing folks to be armed without giving them a non-lethal option (equipment and training) is as good as telling them how you expect them to handle a dangerous situation. Even a lousy lawyer can make that case a slam dunk in the event a firefighter/medic were to use a firearm against someone.
For more on our previous discussions click here… and here.
FYI – this question was posted on January 3, 2013 on one of the old threads from 2011 and it is of such import that it is worth reposting here!!!!
I agree with Counselor Varone, if we are going to even consider arming a few of our FF and/or EMT’s, we should consider all force continuum that includes non-lethal weapons. Point taken, say you have a patient that pulls a gun on you, are you going to face him with a taser? Just something to think about.
Yes Mike… I’ve never heard it phrased that way but don’t bring a taser to a gunfight!!!! But point well taken.
My concern is a FF/medic who uses a gun in self defense under objectively reasonable circumstances will find himself in a very difficult situation explaining why the shooting was absolutely necessary if he had never been trained in those other less lethal options. Poorly trained police officers find themselves faced with the same dilemma – because well trained police experts will come in after the fact and say “well if he had only done this or that” the victim would be alive.
Again… if you are going to do it… do it right.
There was just a case in a neighboring department last week. A sucidal man becomes agressive toward EMS. They backed out and waited for LE. Deputies arrive, get in a struggle with the subject, two taze him with no effect. Subject is shot and dies, one deputy is transported with a head injury.
When veteran law enforcment officers have issues restraining someone, what is a supervisor or Chief Officer going to be able to accomplish in the same situation. I am afraid that armed FFs, Medics or whoever will in many case, make the situation worse, not better.
I for one am not willing to shoot someone, and then try to save their life afterward.
I’ve known fireman that have carried for years and kept their mouth shut. What’s the debate about?
Fred
I have had to deal with the other side of that one: co-workers who refuse to work with a firefighter who is carrying. They claim the guy is an idiot and is going to get them all killed.
Another aspect we have not discussed: If the department allows A (a good guy) to carry, and B (a good guy) to carry… how do they stop C (an imbecile) from carrying. And of course C doesn’t think he’s an imbecile… and says his co-workers don’t like him because he’s ….. fill in the blank.
It can get messy.
40 Years from FF to Chief armed every day.Has gotten us out of trouble several times. No Pd after 2300 hrs Shot twice same number years and did not have to fire weaponto protect myself.
Curt you could replace firearm with driving apparatus.
Haha… we sure could… been there.
I am a volunteer fireman/emt in a rural area in Georgia. I have also trained as a volunteer in law enforcement (full academy program). I have been alone when a situation on the fire scene has gone bad. There are only two deputies on duty in my county at any given time.On one occasion waiting nearly 30 min. for a response while I was truly in danger. I am not excited about the possibility of being armed, however as our society erodes I need to be able to defend myself and possibly an innocent bystander or patient.
When I was selling weapons several years ago, I would ask why they wanted to purchase the weapon. Most would say for self defense.
The next question I asked, is one that anyone who is or has considered carrying a firearm must ask themselves. Are you prepared to kill someone?
One must have the mindset of; WHEN my weapon comes out, someone is going to die. There is no shoot to wound. If you are not mentally prepared to take a life, you likely will become a casualty yourself. It ain’t like TV.
I am a veteran paramedic/firefighter. I have been shot at more times in the United States on duty than I ever was in the war on terror. I agree that there are many variables invovled, and that in all cases an untrained person with a weapon will definitely make matters worse. With that said, medics, and to a lesser extent firefighters, need some method to defend themselves. I believe tasers are best in the confined space of an ambulance. In violent areas with known gangs present I believe there should be well trained medics with firearms. These random shootings that have occurred recently remind all of us that self defense is necessary. What many of you have possibly not heard of are similar instances that were stopped by trained civilians who were armed. Again, the best answer to this debate will require advanced and continuous training. My own agency is exploring joint options with local law enforcement.